1 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:08,270 would you today my Rice University 2 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:11,610 professor of philosophy and religion dr. 3 00:00:17,990 --> 00:00:13,590 Jeffrey crackle jeff has a new book out 4 00:00:21,340 --> 00:00:18,000 titled secret body erotic and esoteric 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:21,350 currents in the history of religions and 6 00:00:27,490 --> 00:00:24,570 he's here to talk to us today about bat 7 00:00:31,009 --> 00:00:27,500 and a bunch of other really cool stuff 8 00:00:33,709 --> 00:00:31,019 Jeff welcome welcome back thanks so much 9 00:00:35,299 --> 00:00:33,719 for joining me on skeptic oh yeah thanks 10 00:00:39,170 --> 00:00:35,309 for having me Alex it's good to be back 11 00:00:41,690 --> 00:00:39,180 it's been a while it has it has and 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:41,700 you've done so much fantastic work 13 00:00:46,580 --> 00:00:45,210 between then and now you know we were 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:46,590 just chatting a little bit before the 15 00:00:50,450 --> 00:00:48,450 interview started and I was relating to 16 00:00:52,549 --> 00:00:50,460 you that you know when I think of you 17 00:00:55,430 --> 00:00:52,559 sometimes I'm reminded of the lesson I 18 00:00:59,479 --> 00:00:55,440 learned in my way back in my former life 19 00:01:03,650 --> 00:00:59,489 as a software entrepreneur and that the 20 00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:03,660 goal was not just to sell software but 21 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:05,790 to reach the influencers and if you 22 00:01:11,179 --> 00:01:09,210 reach the influencers then the message 23 00:01:13,250 --> 00:01:11,189 would get out and you'd sell a bunch of 24 00:01:15,830 --> 00:01:13,260 stuff without a lot of advertising and I 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:15,840 was telling you that's what I see in 26 00:01:21,679 --> 00:01:18,930 your work I see a guy who's had a huge 27 00:01:23,749 --> 00:01:21,689 influence way beyond I mean you've sold 28 00:01:25,700 --> 00:01:23,759 books I'm don't get me wrong but your 29 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:25,710 influence is really big and I think 30 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:28,710 you're going to have a similar kind of 31 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:31,890 influence with this latest book secret 32 00:01:35,870 --> 00:01:33,570 body but it's it's just really cool to 33 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:35,880 reconnect with you and talk with you so 34 00:01:40,370 --> 00:01:37,650 just thanks you're such a generous 35 00:01:44,420 --> 00:01:40,380 spirit with a with a great contribution 36 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:44,430 thanks so much for joining me know I 37 00:01:50,870 --> 00:01:48,090 listen I'm happy and I'm always happy to 38 00:01:53,149 --> 00:01:50,880 hear that you think books are doing work 39 00:01:55,550 --> 00:01:53,159 in the world I mean it's it's a solo 40 00:01:58,429 --> 00:01:55,560 flight you know and it's very lonely and 41 00:02:01,160 --> 00:01:58,439 it's not always apparent and then 42 00:02:05,179 --> 00:02:01,170 suddenly it is apparent so that's always 43 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:05,189 that's always hopeful so so Jeff just to 44 00:02:12,140 --> 00:02:08,190 recap for people you are a professor of 45 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:12,150 religion you live and work in the buckle 46 00:02:16,460 --> 00:02:13,890 of the Bible Belt 47 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:16,470 yeah in Texas and you've written a book 48 00:02:22,850 --> 00:02:21,510 of course on eroticism and religion of 49 00:02:25,370 --> 00:02:22,860 course just what we'd expect from 50 00:02:29,630 --> 00:02:25,380 somebody from Houston now that works 51 00:02:31,970 --> 00:02:29,640 right now I've been writing about well 52 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:31,980 the erotic stuff is really just half of 53 00:02:37,730 --> 00:02:35,370 the corpus Alex you've read the book but 54 00:02:39,850 --> 00:02:37,740 that's the theme that really is gonna 55 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:39,860 grab people and let's face it I mean 56 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:42,690 what's really wonderful about this book 57 00:02:48,260 --> 00:02:45,810 is people are familiar with some of your 58 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:48,270 other works and we're gonna talk real 59 00:02:51,830 --> 00:02:49,650 briefly about those just so in case 60 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:51,840 people aren't authors are the impossible 61 00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:55,530 mutants and mystics the supernatural 62 00:02:59,030 --> 00:02:57,120 that you just wrote with whitley 63 00:03:01,040 --> 00:02:59,040 strieber a couple years ago but but 64 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:01,050 they're familiar with that yeah this 65 00:03:06,740 --> 00:03:04,050 book is going to do is and what it did 66 00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:06,750 for me is you've left bits and pieces of 67 00:03:11,180 --> 00:03:08,760 the trail for how you got there before 68 00:03:13,670 --> 00:03:11,190 but this really winds it together and 69 00:03:15,650 --> 00:03:13,680 let's face it this ironic component as 70 00:03:17,780 --> 00:03:15,660 controversial and jarring as it will be 71 00:03:21,620 --> 00:03:17,790 initially for people is really at the 72 00:03:23,990 --> 00:03:21,630 center of this spiritual journey that 73 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:24,000 you've been on I mean right and that's 74 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:26,130 what secret body really is it's really a 75 00:03:31,430 --> 00:03:29,280 kind of a spiritual memoir that kind of 76 00:03:33,979 --> 00:03:31,440 ties all the the six or seven books 77 00:03:36,259 --> 00:03:33,989 together and puts in between two covers 78 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:36,269 and that was the that was the initial 79 00:03:41,449 --> 00:03:38,970 genesis of the book was I I travel a lot 80 00:03:43,490 --> 00:03:41,459 in I lecture a lot and everywhere I go 81 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:43,500 someone thinks that I've written a 82 00:03:47,990 --> 00:03:45,180 different book because they've just read 83 00:03:49,370 --> 00:03:48,000 one book and they're always sort of 84 00:03:51,229 --> 00:03:49,380 partially right I did write that 85 00:03:53,750 --> 00:03:51,239 particular book but they don't see the 86 00:03:56,420 --> 00:03:53,760 bigger picture and so I wanted to give 87 00:03:58,310 --> 00:03:56,430 people that bigger picture and I knew I 88 00:04:00,259 --> 00:03:58,320 couldn't expect them to read all six or 89 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:00,269 seven books but I thought maybe they 90 00:04:05,270 --> 00:04:02,970 might read one book and so here's here's 91 00:04:07,460 --> 00:04:05,280 that one book it's it's everything you 92 00:04:09,710 --> 00:04:07,470 ever wanted to know about what did 93 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:09,720 whatever it is I think yeah again 94 00:04:15,140 --> 00:04:12,110 between two covers and it's very much 95 00:04:18,050 --> 00:04:15,150 dominated by the erotic certainly for 96 00:04:20,780 --> 00:04:18,060 the first half of the book which is the 97 00:04:23,420 --> 00:04:20,790 this kind of sets all the dials doesn't 98 00:04:24,830 --> 00:04:23,430 and then the second half of the book is 99 00:04:27,490 --> 00:04:24,840 probably what most of your listeners are 100 00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:27,500 more familiar with it's the stuff on 101 00:04:32,380 --> 00:04:30,560 to the paranormal so you know I'd love 102 00:04:34,270 --> 00:04:32,390 to talk about all that we'll talk about 103 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:34,280 all that but what I found interesting is 104 00:04:42,310 --> 00:04:38,090 this connection you're making with your 105 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:42,320 own deep personal spiritual experience 106 00:04:46,690 --> 00:04:45,770 and connection with the erotic and not 107 00:04:50,710 --> 00:04:46,700 in the way that people are going to 108 00:04:54,010 --> 00:04:50,720 think initially but and how that propels 109 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:54,020 you really into this other journey that 110 00:04:58,930 --> 00:04:56,810 you're on and then almost the the 111 00:05:01,060 --> 00:04:58,940 surprise as I read the book the surprise 112 00:05:02,860 --> 00:05:01,070 that you found that like well you mean 113 00:05:04,390 --> 00:05:02,870 that led me to this and this is what 114 00:05:07,780 --> 00:05:04,400 people are really interested in look 115 00:05:11,020 --> 00:05:07,790 okay I can talk about that but you know 116 00:05:13,810 --> 00:05:11,030 know where I'm coming from kind of thing 117 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:13,820 I mean what ties these things to two 118 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:15,650 subjects together the erotic and the 119 00:05:21,790 --> 00:05:18,850 esoteric is collapse of binaries and 120 00:05:24,490 --> 00:05:21,800 this idea that what we think of as 121 00:05:27,220 --> 00:05:24,500 separate whether it's sexuality and 122 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:27,230 spirituality or mind and matter are 123 00:05:33,150 --> 00:05:31,330 really not stuff the the book being this 124 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:33,160 autobiographical very brave 125 00:05:38,350 --> 00:05:36,770 autobiographical thing is a great 126 00:05:40,290 --> 00:05:38,360 introduction to these other books that 127 00:05:44,460 --> 00:05:40,300 you've written that people know about 128 00:05:46,810 --> 00:05:44,470 let's talk a little bit more about that 129 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:46,820 connection and some of those things I 130 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:48,890 mean let's get this clear I mean it's 131 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:51,410 kind of we just got to say it I mean so 132 00:05:56,890 --> 00:05:54,650 you're a straight man you care about 133 00:06:03,640 --> 00:05:56,900 gender issues and you talk in the book 134 00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:03,650 about Palmer homoerotic themes and 135 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:07,070 religion and your own experience as a 136 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:10,370 kid who grows up in Nebraska and is very 137 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:12,710 very spiritually inclined winds up going 138 00:06:18,340 --> 00:06:14,930 to seminary and is suddenly surrounded 139 00:06:21,670 --> 00:06:18,350 by all these closeted gay men and this 140 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:21,680 kind of informs your worldview 141 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:25,430 in a way that I think the book really 142 00:06:30,250 --> 00:06:28,190 captures wonderfully and that is it 143 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:30,260 captures him in a couple of ways one you 144 00:06:35,610 --> 00:06:31,850 know was this whole thing about what's 145 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:35,620 going on with this erotic nature of 146 00:06:41,330 --> 00:06:38,510 spirituality but the other thing I see 147 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:41,340 you struggling with in the 148 00:06:46,780 --> 00:06:43,710 and it's something that I want to return 149 00:06:51,140 --> 00:06:46,790 to again and again in this interview is 150 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:51,150 just your kind of contempt with the 151 00:06:58,490 --> 00:06:56,210 [\h__\h] with just how ridiculous it is 152 00:07:01,520 --> 00:06:58,500 almost at the surface I mean you don't 153 00:07:04,220 --> 00:07:01,530 even have to dig more than a teaspoon to 154 00:07:10,340 --> 00:07:04,230 beep into the dirt and it's just full of 155 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:10,350 [\h__\h] so hit those two for me yeah so 156 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:14,010 I mean I did I grew up in Nebraska in a 157 00:07:18,470 --> 00:07:16,350 farming community and when I hit 158 00:07:20,810 --> 00:07:18,480 adolescence I grew up I had a kind of 159 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:20,820 idyllic childhood kind of my wife 160 00:07:28,370 --> 00:07:23,460 describes it as Mayberry and there's a 161 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:28,380 lot of truth was today since pretty much 162 00:07:33,590 --> 00:07:32,250 everything collapsed I I became 163 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:33,600 extremely pious 164 00:07:40,730 --> 00:07:38,010 and that manifested as me fasting like 165 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:40,740 if you would have asked 14 year old Jeff 166 00:07:45,460 --> 00:07:43,170 why he's not eating he would have said 167 00:07:48,590 --> 00:07:45,470 he was fasting to become a saint and 168 00:07:51,350 --> 00:07:48,600 that was true that was my those were my 169 00:07:55,730 --> 00:07:51,360 conscious motivations but it pretty much 170 00:07:57,860 --> 00:07:55,740 destroyed all of my social life had 171 00:08:03,020 --> 00:07:57,870 destroyed my athletic career it it 172 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:03,030 created great stress and it eventually 173 00:08:09,740 --> 00:08:07,650 and the seminary where I was going to 174 00:08:12,530 --> 00:08:09,750 pursue becoming a monk you know I wanted 175 00:08:15,260 --> 00:08:12,540 to be a saint but I wasn't eating still 176 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:15,270 even six or seven years later so I was I 177 00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:18,450 was essentially a walking skeleton by 178 00:08:25,210 --> 00:08:21,350 the time I was 19 or 20 years old and 179 00:08:27,530 --> 00:08:25,220 the monks were extremely wise and 180 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:27,540 psychological savvy and so they put me 181 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:30,090 into psychoanalysis with one of their 182 00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:31,910 own monks who was a trained 183 00:08:39,530 --> 00:08:36,960 psychoanalyst so it was astonishing I 184 00:08:43,210 --> 00:08:39,540 you know I began to have dreams almost 185 00:08:45,940 --> 00:08:43,220 immediately of things like these huge 186 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:45,950 bosom hugely buzz 187 00:08:51,819 --> 00:08:48,110 the beautiful women offering me banana 188 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:51,829 cream pies and milkshakes and I just 189 00:08:57,340 --> 00:08:53,450 felt horrible in the dream I couldn't 190 00:09:00,550 --> 00:08:57,350 take the milkshakes or the pies hey 191 00:09:02,410 --> 00:09:00,560 didn't know why and so the analyst would 192 00:09:03,790 --> 00:09:02,420 say well Jeff what do you what do you 193 00:09:05,410 --> 00:09:03,800 make of that dream and I was like I 194 00:09:08,259 --> 00:09:05,420 don't know it's really weird it's I 195 00:09:11,530 --> 00:09:08,269 don't I don't know but eventually of 196 00:09:14,110 --> 00:09:11,540 course when I landed on is that clearly 197 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:14,120 my little psyche had connected food and 198 00:09:21,370 --> 00:09:17,930 sex and it also connected food sex and 199 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:21,380 mother because although all the food was 200 00:09:28,180 --> 00:09:25,310 milk based and so I I had repressed my 201 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:28,190 sexuality you know a delay at puberty or 202 00:09:33,670 --> 00:09:31,490 adolescence and that that suppression 203 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:33,680 had created this intense piety and this 204 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:36,170 this desire to fast and to become a 205 00:09:43,019 --> 00:09:40,850 saint and but it also was killing me and 206 00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:43,029 so but once I realized what had happened 207 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:44,959 psychologically on a kind of unconscious 208 00:09:51,010 --> 00:09:47,570 level it was just like you turned the 209 00:09:55,450 --> 00:09:53,290 anorexic I was like really really hungry 210 00:09:58,420 --> 00:09:55,460 I mean I hadn't eaten for the most part 211 00:10:01,930 --> 00:09:58,430 in six or seven years so I just ate 212 00:10:03,790 --> 00:10:01,940 everything inside I was so hungry and I 213 00:10:05,020 --> 00:10:03,800 just you know my body came back and of 214 00:10:07,630 --> 00:10:05,030 course when the body comes back 215 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:07,640 sexuality comes back and suddenly I was 216 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:11,030 this you know twenty year old young man 217 00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:17,810 with a body but I was also straight and 218 00:10:22,590 --> 00:10:20,630 I was living in a community a religious 219 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:22,600 community in which most of the young men 220 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:27,490 were were gay not not in some kind of 221 00:10:31,810 --> 00:10:30,410 explicit way we weren't having sex with 222 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:31,820 each other it was just they were trying 223 00:10:38,740 --> 00:10:33,710 to be celibate as well but pretty much 224 00:10:42,850 --> 00:10:38,750 everybody there was gay made that into a 225 00:10:47,230 --> 00:10:42,860 life of the priesthood or holiness and I 226 00:10:49,630 --> 00:10:47,240 wasn't I I didn't fit in and I was just 227 00:10:54,820 --> 00:10:49,640 so struck I was struck by two things in 228 00:10:58,450 --> 00:10:54,830 college I was struck by my own fasting 229 00:11:00,930 --> 00:10:58,460 behavior and how I was I couldn't stop 230 00:11:03,070 --> 00:11:00,940 that and how that was driven by 231 00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:03,080 psychosexual forces of which I was 232 00:11:09,070 --> 00:11:06,110 completely unaware so I realized through 233 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:09,080 that psychoanalysis that people could be 234 00:11:13,390 --> 00:11:10,970 doing things for reasons that they 235 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:13,400 weren't aware of that was just stunning 236 00:11:21,010 --> 00:11:16,250 to me I was so stunned by that and then 237 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:21,020 I was stunned by the describe what the 238 00:11:25,010 --> 00:11:21,570 Catholic 239 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:25,020 Church was teaching about homosexuality 240 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:27,690 which was really bad in the 1980s and 241 00:11:33,470 --> 00:11:31,170 the internal life of the church or the 242 00:11:36,380 --> 00:11:33,480 community of which I was a part which 243 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:36,390 was in a very healthy and playful way 244 00:11:42,530 --> 00:11:40,770 gay and so this this discrepancy between 245 00:11:49,350 --> 00:11:42,540 the inside and the outside of my own 246 00:11:55,079 --> 00:11:53,160 disturbed by homosexuality I was morally 247 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:55,089 disturbed by the Church's teachings on 248 00:12:00,630 --> 00:11:57,730 homosexuality which I I could see we're 249 00:12:02,070 --> 00:12:00,640 really hurting people and one of my best 250 00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:02,080 friends actually tried to kill himself 251 00:12:07,079 --> 00:12:04,390 over this so that was very upsetting to 252 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:07,089 me as well and so that became kind of 253 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:09,910 the origin of my my intellectual career 254 00:12:16,079 --> 00:12:12,490 my intellectual vocation our calling was 255 00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:16,089 to try to tease out how sexual 256 00:12:20,850 --> 00:12:18,790 orientation plays into religious 257 00:12:22,380 --> 00:12:20,860 vocation and how that manifests 258 00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:22,390 particularly in mystical literature 259 00:12:28,350 --> 00:12:24,880 which so much of which is deeply erotic 260 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:28,360 it's about the human being at least in 261 00:12:33,389 --> 00:12:30,730 the Christian tradition uniting with 262 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:33,399 Christ often in an erotic or sexual way 263 00:12:39,569 --> 00:12:37,570 and so obviously that means something 264 00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:39,579 different for a gay man that it does for 265 00:12:44,519 --> 00:12:42,399 a straight man and so that was the that 266 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:44,529 was the genesis of all of this Alex it 267 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:50,980 was this this struggle essentially you 268 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:52,450 know but if I can add something there 269 00:12:58,350 --> 00:12:54,610 one thing that's really interesting 270 00:13:01,079 --> 00:12:58,360 about your journey and this turn that it 271 00:13:03,210 --> 00:13:01,089 takes is it isn't just about the 272 00:13:07,170 --> 00:13:03,220 Christian tradition right oh because you 273 00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:07,180 get in a whole heap of trouble you go 274 00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:10,560 over to India and you apply that same 275 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:14,560 write-ins that same sensibility and that 276 00:13:22,199 --> 00:13:18,010 same bravery you know what I see in this 277 00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:22,209 book is someone who's been through hell 278 00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:24,760 has put themself through hell you know 279 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:26,230 for whatever reason but they've been 280 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:27,610 through it and they're on the other side 281 00:13:31,530 --> 00:13:30,070 and there's a certain bravery that you 282 00:13:34,079 --> 00:13:31,540 show and you've shown throughout your 283 00:13:36,030 --> 00:13:34,089 whole career that makes you just kind of 284 00:13:37,530 --> 00:13:36,040 walk into the fire and I probably don't 285 00:13:40,949 --> 00:13:37,540 even know what's coming at the other end 286 00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:40,959 but that's you go over to India and 287 00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:43,360 those people still those Hindus have not 288 00:13:48,030 --> 00:13:46,240 forgiven you by any means and you just 289 00:13:50,370 --> 00:13:48,040 walk into a whole shitstorm over there 290 00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:50,380 because you have that same sensibility 291 00:13:55,769 --> 00:13:53,740 tell people who don't know you know a 292 00:13:57,810 --> 00:13:55,779 high-level sketch of what that whole 293 00:14:00,180 --> 00:13:57,820 thing was about yeah so that came later 294 00:14:03,330 --> 00:14:00,190 that's why I didn't tell it yet I mean 295 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:03,340 what happens is 296 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:05,710 find anywhere in the Christian mystical 297 00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:09,700 tradition a an erotic mystical life that 298 00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:13,150 a straight man can participate in you're 299 00:14:17,490 --> 00:14:15,220 always in love with a male deity and 300 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:17,500 you're always uniting with a male deity 301 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:20,710 and Christian mysticism so I I thought I 302 00:14:25,730 --> 00:14:22,810 needed to go outside of the Christian 303 00:14:27,510 --> 00:14:25,740 tradition so Hinduism looked really 304 00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:27,520 fascinating to me because there's all 305 00:14:32,490 --> 00:14:29,620 these goddesses there's all these ways 306 00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:32,500 of being heterosexual that don't exist 307 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:36,340 in the Christian tradition and so I went 308 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:38,110 to graduate school and I studied Indian 309 00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:41,410 languages for almost 12 15 years 310 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:43,960 actually and I end up writing my 311 00:14:50,130 --> 00:14:46,210 dissertation on a famous hindu saint 312 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:50,140 named ramakrishna who died in 1886 in 313 00:14:55,530 --> 00:14:51,130 calcutta 314 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:55,540 and i was looking at the bengali texts 315 00:14:59,490 --> 00:14:57,370 about his life and teachings and the 316 00:15:01,800 --> 00:14:59,500 english translations when they existed 317 00:15:05,070 --> 00:15:01,810 of those texts and I was just showing 318 00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:05,080 how they were censored or Baldur eyes 319 00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:07,270 when they moved from the original 320 00:15:12,060 --> 00:15:10,270 Bengali to the English and my book or my 321 00:15:14,910 --> 00:15:12,070 dissertation Colley's Child was very 322 00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:14,920 much about that in that censorship and 323 00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:17,500 how they censored out all of the sexual 324 00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:19,390 material particularly what we called the 325 00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:21,910 tantric material and it turned out that 326 00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:25,360 Ramakrishna himself was homoerotic Lee 327 00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:28,390 inclined very much like my experience in 328 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:30,430 the seminary and down through the 329 00:15:35,490 --> 00:15:32,650 centuries and so I just wrote about that 330 00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:35,500 because it seemed to me obvious and it 331 00:15:40,260 --> 00:15:37,360 seemed to me to be an important thing to 332 00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:40,270 try to understand so that book came out 333 00:15:47,850 --> 00:15:43,960 in 1995 and it was almost immediately 334 00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:47,860 hailed in in the Academy as this amazing 335 00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:52,000 new book but within about a year it had 336 00:15:55,860 --> 00:15:54,520 been targeted by the Hindu nationalists 337 00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:55,870 what we would think of as 338 00:16:03,530 --> 00:15:58,450 fundamentalists in the u.s. who had just 339 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:03,540 come into power in in New Delhi and they 340 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:07,090 targeted the book as a kind of way to 341 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:09,550 increase their own political power and 342 00:16:14,610 --> 00:16:11,710 there were two major banned movements on 343 00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:14,620 it it was debated in Parliament there 344 00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:16,840 was a file created on me and there 345 00:16:23,340 --> 00:16:19,320 equivalent of the Indian CIA I 346 00:16:27,270 --> 00:16:23,350 essentially became this harassed and 347 00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:27,280 targeted American scholar that went on 348 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:31,120 for about seven years until I had enough 349 00:16:36,990 --> 00:16:35,170 and just left the field entirely it 350 00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:37,000 still goes on to this day though other 351 00:16:43,650 --> 00:16:39,790 scholars saying similar things are 352 00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:43,660 targeted to this day there's been about 353 00:16:49,260 --> 00:16:46,420 a couple dozen American scholars and 354 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:49,270 many many more Indian scholars in 355 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:51,970 journalists who are now being harassed 356 00:16:57,810 --> 00:16:53,710 and threatened in some cases even killed 357 00:17:00,840 --> 00:16:57,820 so this this this targeting of 358 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:00,850 intellectuals it in some ways started in 359 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:02,910 the mid 90s but it continues to this day 360 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:06,550 and that was my dissertation Alex that 361 00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:09,910 was my first book coming out of the 362 00:17:15,330 --> 00:17:13,120 block that received all of this praise 363 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:15,340 within all of this right but at the same 364 00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:18,490 time you're aware of of the larger 365 00:17:26,850 --> 00:17:22,300 context that that's fits in in terms of 366 00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,860 our culture in terms of politics in 367 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:28,960 terms of power in terms of all these 368 00:17:33,630 --> 00:17:31,690 other things so it's like yeah they were 369 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:33,640 picking on you and yeah they were 370 00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:35,850 defending their religion but it's a lot 371 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:38,710 it's it's trickier than that and and 372 00:17:42,930 --> 00:17:41,650 there's this whole thing of that I hope 373 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:42,940 to talk about next 374 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:46,570 in terms of some aspects of culture and 375 00:17:49,890 --> 00:17:48,490 spirituality and how it doesn't fit 376 00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:49,900 together no matter how you do it so you 377 00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:51,790 know you want to however you play it 378 00:17:54,810 --> 00:17:52,630 it's not gonna work 379 00:17:57,900 --> 00:17:54,820 so here's what I want to do with this 380 00:17:59,790 --> 00:17:57,910 interview one of the things I want to 381 00:18:02,460 --> 00:17:59,800 try and do is chunk things down because 382 00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:02,470 I think sometimes I love you know I 383 00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:03,940 could sit here and talk to Jeff [\h__\h] 384 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:05,320 for two hours we're only gonna talk an 385 00:18:10,170 --> 00:18:08,260 hour I promise you but you know inside 386 00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:10,180 baseball a lot of this stuff and it 387 00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:12,880 won't have a chance to reach people 388 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:15,280 because it's all kind of glom together 389 00:18:20,540 --> 00:18:17,890 so I'm gonna probably break this up into 390 00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:20,550 separate sections and I have another 391 00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:24,880 another section another provocative kind 392 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:27,430 of little title that I'm gonna kind of 393 00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:28,770 hit you with 394 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:31,020 let's talk about that for a minute in 395 00:18:36,410 --> 00:18:33,690 I'm again talking with dr. Jeff [\h__\h] 396 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:36,420 from Rice University author of this new 397 00:18:39,890 --> 00:18:37,770 very interesting book we're talking 398 00:18:42,260 --> 00:18:39,900 about secret body which you can see 399 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:42,270 there on the screen and we just had a 400 00:18:49,790 --> 00:18:46,490 really interesting chat about really how 401 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:49,800 bravely autobiographical this book is 402 00:18:54,860 --> 00:18:51,930 and some of the things that he covers in 403 00:18:56,810 --> 00:18:54,870 it so definitely check that out but next 404 00:18:59,120 --> 00:18:56,820 Jeff what I want to talk about you know 405 00:19:03,320 --> 00:18:59,130 again but I say brave I mean people get 406 00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:03,330 a sense for what I mean when you know 407 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:05,700 the book is just says hey here's the 408 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:09,450 problems with non self reflective 409 00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:13,410 Christians and again you know pretty 410 00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:17,550 much got this right out of your book so 411 00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:20,880 if you would if you feel up to it it's 412 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:22,860 kind of throwing you right into the fire 413 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:25,350 here but again let's let's talk about 414 00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:28,470 some of the tough stuff and if you 415 00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:31,380 wouldn't mind maybe reading this excerpt 416 00:19:35,420 --> 00:19:33,360 from the book and then we can talk a 417 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:35,430 little bit about that is that okay yeah 418 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:38,370 sure yes so this this is the from a 419 00:19:42,020 --> 00:19:40,050 chapter in the book in which I'm 420 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:42,030 struggling with essentially being an 421 00:19:47,260 --> 00:19:45,090 intellectual in our modern or 422 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:47,270 contemporary American culture a 423 00:19:54,110 --> 00:19:51,450 university culture and rural America it 424 00:19:57,290 --> 00:19:54,120 goes like this I go home to rural 425 00:19:59,930 --> 00:19:57,300 Nebraska every year for decades now I've 426 00:20:02,690 --> 00:19:59,940 been deeply struck if not emotionally 427 00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:02,700 wounded by the immense moral abyss that 428 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:05,520 separates my university community from 429 00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:07,770 the general culture of rural America I 430 00:20:13,910 --> 00:20:10,860 am thinking of practices and ideals like 431 00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:13,920 self reflexivity historical 432 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:17,550 consciousness religious pluralism gender 433 00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:21,410 equity racial and sexual diversity 434 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:24,240 environmental sustainability the 435 00:20:28,910 --> 00:20:26,370 importance of privileged empirical data 436 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:28,920 and thoughtful debate over received 437 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:32,610 opinion and blind propaganda and above 438 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:34,530 all the secular public space that 439 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:37,290 guarantees both freedom of and from 440 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:39,810 religion okay you're punching pretty 441 00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:42,770 hard there do you want to 442 00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:46,500 elaborated all on that well I mean 443 00:20:50,270 --> 00:20:48,000 there's so much there we could elaborate 444 00:20:54,049 --> 00:20:50,280 on Alex those things I just read off 445 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:54,059 those are in any basic mission statement 446 00:20:58,460 --> 00:20:56,250 or value statement of any university or 447 00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:58,470 College in the country for the most part 448 00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:00,480 certainly not all of them but I would 449 00:21:06,289 --> 00:21:02,700 say most of them share all of those 450 00:21:09,919 --> 00:21:06,299 values and yet those are the same dozen 451 00:21:13,010 --> 00:21:09,929 they profess to share those values I am 452 00:21:16,430 --> 00:21:13,020 highly highly doubtful that they really 453 00:21:18,850 --> 00:21:16,440 do but okay I'm with you the tuitions 454 00:21:23,570 --> 00:21:18,860 I've worked in half I mean those we've 455 00:21:27,770 --> 00:21:23,580 nurture and defend those values but 456 00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:27,780 those are those same values are demeaned 457 00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:30,809 as as liberal I mean liberal has become 458 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:34,159 a bad word in in our public culture I 459 00:21:39,049 --> 00:21:36,690 even though it was a perfectly fine word 460 00:21:41,210 --> 00:21:39,059 20 or 30 years ago you know I mean we 461 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:41,220 still speak of a liberal arts education 462 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:43,890 none of us and higher education think 463 00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:46,770 that's a bad thing but that is a bad 464 00:21:52,850 --> 00:21:50,159 thing to huge swathes of rural America 465 00:21:58,039 --> 00:21:52,860 and so I'm trying to put my finger on 466 00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:58,049 that problem on that that that rip right 467 00:22:05,390 --> 00:22:01,440 through American culture and in I'm not 468 00:22:07,460 --> 00:22:05,400 sure I'm not sure the rip is is is where 469 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:07,470 you're putting it I mean it certainly is 470 00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:09,510 I don't want to kind of get to you know 471 00:22:13,580 --> 00:22:11,580 just provocative for the sake of being 472 00:22:16,220 --> 00:22:13,590 provocative because we get it you know 473 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:16,230 we get what you're saying in terms of 474 00:22:20,029 --> 00:22:18,330 the funding Christians right and Dyke 475 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:20,039 the crazy Christians and get all that 476 00:22:26,060 --> 00:22:24,090 but we get that there's a lot of crazy 477 00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:26,070 atheists out there and there's a lot of 478 00:22:31,310 --> 00:22:28,799 crazy liberals out there in any side can 479 00:22:33,890 --> 00:22:31,320 go and get a little video of the 480 00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:33,900 craziness of the other side and show it 481 00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:35,460 out there and all of a sudden you know 482 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:38,580 it's just this kind of division let me 483 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:40,830 tell you a little story from my life you 484 00:22:46,279 --> 00:22:43,110 know just just last weekend I attended 485 00:22:48,289 --> 00:22:46,289 this funeral ceremony for kind of this 486 00:22:50,510 --> 00:22:48,299 soccer friend so my daughter plays 487 00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:50,520 soccer and a soccer dad you know but I 488 00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:52,500 know pretty well and really nice guy 489 00:22:57,950 --> 00:22:55,200 we liked him I go to this guy's funeral 490 00:23:01,010 --> 00:22:57,960 ceremony celebration of life ceremony at 491 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,020 this Evangelical Church in Southern 492 00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:03,000 California so you live in the buckle of 493 00:23:07,340 --> 00:23:03,780 the Bible Belt 494 00:23:11,150 --> 00:23:07,350 I live in liberal liberal Southern 495 00:23:14,530 --> 00:23:11,160 California and I'm a evangelical church 496 00:23:17,150 --> 00:23:14,540 and it is full first of all I mean 497 00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:17,160 you're stunned by the fact that they can 498 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:18,960 fill up a church with 400 people for 499 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:20,610 somebody these days you know that 500 00:23:24,410 --> 00:23:22,290 doesn't happen on a Saturday afternoon 501 00:23:27,050 --> 00:23:24,420 and they go through this guy's let's so 502 00:23:29,570 --> 00:23:27,060 it's an amazing life it's a quietly 503 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:29,580 amazing life of little things that he's 504 00:23:37,310 --> 00:23:33,210 done and helped people and the the the 505 00:23:39,530 --> 00:23:37,320 two gay soccer moms who he initially 506 00:23:42,050 --> 00:23:39,540 meets by writing this letter saying hey 507 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:42,060 you know Proposition 9 is coming out for 508 00:23:45,620 --> 00:23:43,530 gay marriage and we should we should 509 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:45,630 really rally against this you know and 510 00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:48,090 it's terrible and they kind of gently 511 00:23:54,620 --> 00:23:51,320 take offense and this guy completely 512 00:23:56,780 --> 00:23:54,630 goes in Sciences you know what I'm wrong 513 00:23:59,390 --> 00:23:56,790 I'm wrong about that you are really 514 00:24:01,790 --> 00:23:59,400 great people and I need to re-examine 515 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:01,800 what I believe and he turns out to be 516 00:24:06,290 --> 00:24:04,140 this tremendous friend like he was to so 517 00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:06,300 many people and he helps these people 518 00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:07,860 out constantly but he's like they're 519 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:11,280 number one handy man like perfect uncle 520 00:24:17,150 --> 00:24:13,010 that just does everything for him 521 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:17,160 the guy lived an amazing life and I'm 522 00:24:22,340 --> 00:24:19,410 sitting in this church listening to a 523 00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:22,350 lot of evangelical [\h__\h] that I can 524 00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:25,440 barely get through about empty tomb and 525 00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:27,480 about your we better come over to our 526 00:24:33,550 --> 00:24:29,910 side and all the rest is o'clock crap 527 00:24:38,860 --> 00:24:33,560 but I'm struck by the fact that this guy 528 00:24:42,590 --> 00:24:38,870 through all that found a way to live and 529 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:42,600 grow his spirituality in a way that we 530 00:24:50,570 --> 00:24:45,570 all would look at go that's a beautiful 531 00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:50,580 thing so I don't know you know I get the 532 00:24:57,010 --> 00:24:52,950 the anger at the crazy Christians and 533 00:24:59,380 --> 00:24:57,020 the non self reflective thing 534 00:25:01,540 --> 00:24:59,390 but I just think the other side of that 535 00:25:05,550 --> 00:25:01,550 that liberal side the community that 536 00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:05,560 you're at is so filled with ridiculous 537 00:25:11,410 --> 00:25:09,470 atheists I am a biological robot in a 538 00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:11,420 meaningless universe kind of non 539 00:25:16,780 --> 00:25:14,000 thinkers non self-reflective people as 540 00:25:19,030 --> 00:25:16,790 well and I wonder which is worse because 541 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:19,040 my buddy in the evangelical church he 542 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:21,530 got it and he got something out of that 543 00:25:27,010 --> 00:25:24,050 experience that even though I don't know 544 00:25:28,810 --> 00:25:27,020 how he did it and I couldn't there's 545 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:28,820 something there that I don't think he 546 00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:32,150 could have gotten in the Academy yeah 547 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:34,640 well you're using a lot of words I would 548 00:25:40,090 --> 00:25:37,490 never use Alex you know I don't talk 549 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:40,100 about crazy Christians anywhere in the 550 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:42,530 ball no no I do that's me and I get I 551 00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:44,930 get called on for Christian bashing but 552 00:25:50,020 --> 00:25:46,400 to me it's just you got to look for the 553 00:25:51,940 --> 00:25:50,030 truth you know so but it is Jesus isn't 554 00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:51,950 historical Jesus real how much of that 555 00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:53,720 is a cold thing all that but I'm sorry 556 00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:56,480 please continue yeah I think you're drew 557 00:26:01,480 --> 00:25:58,970 I think what you just articulated is is 558 00:26:04,030 --> 00:26:01,490 frankly part of the problem it's it's a 559 00:26:06,430 --> 00:26:04,040 false equivalency you can always find 560 00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:06,440 examples on any side that are extreme 561 00:26:14,050 --> 00:26:09,830 and easy to make fun of but I think it's 562 00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:14,060 an equivalency to point to the kind of 563 00:26:20,410 --> 00:26:18,830 far right-wing propaganda that really 564 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:20,420 controls so much of our public 565 00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:23,770 conversation today and higher education 566 00:26:30,610 --> 00:26:26,510 which is really about having 567 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:30,620 conversations and yes there are excess 568 00:26:34,930 --> 00:26:32,330 excessive moments in higher education 569 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:34,940 but it's really not the same thing at 570 00:26:42,660 --> 00:26:39,530 all so I I don't see that frankly from 571 00:26:45,580 --> 00:26:42,670 where I see I think we need a lot more 572 00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:45,590 calmness and and and and we need to talk 573 00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:47,420 about these things and that's what I'm 574 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:49,520 trying to do in the book I'm trying to 575 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:53,210 call out where I think the the split is 576 00:26:59,380 --> 00:26:55,970 and I'm calling on intellectuals like 577 00:27:01,300 --> 00:26:59,390 myself to not just talk to each other 578 00:27:03,790 --> 00:27:01,310 but to go out into the public culture 579 00:27:06,430 --> 00:27:03,800 and talk to their families talk to the 580 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:06,440 public culture about what it is we do in 581 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:09,290 in the higher education which i think is 582 00:27:13,450 --> 00:27:10,970 really still the answer 583 00:27:16,930 --> 00:27:13,460 and I think this lack of civil discourse 584 00:27:20,349 --> 00:27:16,940 and this this constant demonizing of the 585 00:27:23,049 --> 00:27:20,359 other is is precisely what we don't do 586 00:27:26,409 --> 00:27:23,059 and in in higher education in our best 587 00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:26,419 moments okay with that another point 588 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:28,340 from the book that you might want to 589 00:27:36,219 --> 00:27:31,970 talk about nothing positive in the 590 00:27:38,019 --> 00:27:36,229 humanities boring that's clipped right 591 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:38,029 out of a book you need to give it some 592 00:27:46,810 --> 00:27:41,570 context so please give it the context 593 00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:46,820 because that's really my my Robin and 594 00:27:50,169 --> 00:27:48,710 another one as well but please tell me 595 00:27:52,899 --> 00:27:50,179 what you're thinking with that so that's 596 00:27:55,629 --> 00:27:52,909 actually a great thing to follow up on 597 00:27:57,999 --> 00:27:55,639 our previous conversation because your 598 00:28:01,060 --> 00:27:58,009 listeners might think that I'm just 599 00:28:03,989 --> 00:28:01,070 roaring for higher education and I'm and 600 00:28:08,379 --> 00:28:03,999 I'm not I mean much of the book is a 601 00:28:09,460 --> 00:28:08,389 pretty robust criticism of my own people 602 00:28:11,469 --> 00:28:09,470 you know 603 00:28:13,779 --> 00:28:11,479 the humanities the people who work in 604 00:28:16,229 --> 00:28:13,789 the humanities and the argument there 605 00:28:18,609 --> 00:28:16,239 that you reference very briefly is I 606 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:18,619 basically make this argument that if you 607 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:20,450 want to be taken seriously in the 608 00:28:24,909 --> 00:28:23,210 humanities today it has to be depressing 609 00:28:27,339 --> 00:28:24,919 in other words it has to be 610 00:28:29,889 --> 00:28:27,349 deconstructive in some ways you can't 611 00:28:32,889 --> 00:28:29,899 really say anything positive or 612 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:32,899 constructive I like how you say then if 613 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:35,690 you think I'm wrong try it yeah say 614 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:38,720 something yeah yeah and you know the 615 00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:41,210 argument in the book is that the 616 00:28:46,659 --> 00:28:43,369 humanities could be very much about our 617 00:28:48,639 --> 00:28:46,669 own cosmic nature I'm really pushing for 618 00:28:50,589 --> 00:28:48,649 a kind of cosmic vision of the 619 00:28:53,139 --> 00:28:50,599 humanities with the human being as this 620 00:28:56,619 --> 00:28:53,149 highly evolved expression of the whole 621 00:28:59,049 --> 00:28:56,629 universe but I'm also struggling with 622 00:29:00,999 --> 00:28:59,059 what I know to be the case that you 623 00:29:03,060 --> 00:29:01,009 can't really say that in our president 624 00:29:06,249 --> 00:29:03,070 intellectual climate without getting 625 00:29:10,029 --> 00:29:06,259 essentially cut down your nice cut out 626 00:29:14,019 --> 00:29:10,039 from under you so I'm not I'm certainly 627 00:29:16,299 --> 00:29:14,029 not romanticizing the higher education 628 00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:16,309 I'm actually deeply critical of it and 629 00:29:21,249 --> 00:29:19,700 I'm trying to address what I see is the 630 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:21,259 faults there as well as the faults of 631 00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:23,570 the public culture I'm not sure you're 632 00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:24,230 critical 633 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:31,520 you know Gloria Steinem and her 634 00:29:36,460 --> 00:29:33,770 connection to the CIA which has been 635 00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:36,470 outed she outed herself I think is a 636 00:29:42,010 --> 00:29:38,799 classic example of how we can easily 637 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:42,020 kind of be misdirected here look at the 638 00:29:48,430 --> 00:29:45,410 dialogue that that created most of it 639 00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:48,440 from people in your camp if you will was 640 00:29:53,169 --> 00:29:50,720 Oh Gloria you know she shouldn't have 641 00:29:55,690 --> 00:29:53,179 partnered with the CIA but I guess she 642 00:29:59,260 --> 00:29:55,700 had to because feminism was so important 643 00:30:02,409 --> 00:29:59,270 and I say [\h__\h] that I ask the question 644 00:30:04,750 --> 00:30:02,419 what the hell is the CIA doing shaping 645 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:04,760 culture and why would you so blindly 646 00:30:10,570 --> 00:30:08,330 follow because you think it fits with 647 00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:10,580 what your agenda is can you really be 648 00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:13,520 that easily manipulated I'm not talking 649 00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:15,710 about you directly here but as a group 650 00:30:21,250 --> 00:30:17,809 can but really be that easily won over 651 00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:21,260 and say oh but we had to win feminism so 652 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:23,840 it's okay that we partnered with the CIA 653 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:26,450 to do it it's okay you know it's like I 654 00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:27,890 say the whole intellectual thing you 655 00:30:31,570 --> 00:30:29,600 know curbed your [\h__\h] indignation 656 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:31,580 where were you 657 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:34,970 when Obama became the drone strike 658 00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:38,030 president that killed more people 659 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:41,120 innocent people at funerals and weddings 660 00:30:48,430 --> 00:30:44,210 than anyone in history where were you 661 00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:48,440 you know where were you when 9/11 where 662 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:50,870 were you folks with all the rest of that 663 00:30:56,530 --> 00:30:53,330 but all of a sudden there's all this 664 00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:56,540 indignation at the social unjustice is 665 00:31:01,600 --> 00:30:59,360 the social unjustice new is this somehow 666 00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:01,610 a new phenomena that we have to 667 00:31:08,650 --> 00:31:04,150 phenomenon that we have to worry about 668 00:31:12,159 --> 00:31:08,660 III really I wonder about that and I 669 00:31:16,630 --> 00:31:12,169 wonder about how much they've bought 670 00:31:18,390 --> 00:31:16,640 into this blind materialism that we 671 00:31:20,289 --> 00:31:18,400 talked about that I talked about 672 00:31:23,049 --> 00:31:20,299 biological robots in a meaningless 673 00:31:26,049 --> 00:31:23,059 universe and how much that is never 674 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:26,059 fully brought up in examined you're 675 00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:28,130 certainly examining it you're certainly 676 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:30,080 coming at it from a completely different 677 00:31:37,060 --> 00:31:32,690 angle but I wonder if your audience 678 00:31:39,310 --> 00:31:37,070 inside the Academy is really up to speed 679 00:31:41,950 --> 00:31:39,320 or if they're just going you hadda yada 680 00:31:43,629 --> 00:31:41,960 yada now let me get on with mine again 681 00:31:45,820 --> 00:31:43,639 Alex you put a lot of things on the 682 00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:45,830 table there right of course I didn't 683 00:31:50,499 --> 00:31:48,559 address Gloria Steinem in any way in the 684 00:31:54,610 --> 00:31:50,509 books right again you can pull out these 685 00:31:58,960 --> 00:31:54,620 examples from any address it address it 686 00:32:02,470 --> 00:31:58,970 now Gloria Steinem was a lifetime CIA 687 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:02,480 operative and the feminist movement was 688 00:32:07,659 --> 00:32:05,450 highly influenced by what the CIA wanted 689 00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:07,669 to do isn't that relevant to what we're 690 00:32:11,619 --> 00:32:10,190 just talking about yeah but I just I 691 00:32:14,369 --> 00:32:11,629 don't know anything about it 692 00:32:17,860 --> 00:32:14,379 so I don't I mean the first rule of 693 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:17,870 trying to say something intelligent is 694 00:32:20,980 --> 00:32:19,370 that you don't say things about 695 00:32:23,169 --> 00:32:20,990 something you don't know anything about 696 00:32:26,499 --> 00:32:23,179 so I just I just don't know anything 697 00:32:29,169 --> 00:32:26,509 about that case but I'm sure there are 698 00:32:31,049 --> 00:32:29,179 lots of instances in which you know the 699 00:32:34,930 --> 00:32:31,059 intelligence service is influenced 700 00:32:37,509 --> 00:32:34,940 intellectuals I mean much of science of 701 00:32:40,029 --> 00:32:37,519 course is wedded to the military complex 702 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:40,039 as well there's all kinds of things we 703 00:32:45,779 --> 00:32:43,370 could talk about there but none of them 704 00:32:48,970 --> 00:32:45,789 are addressed in this particular book 705 00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:48,980 and I don't know a lot about all of that 706 00:32:53,169 --> 00:32:50,750 stuff but I mean you're certainly right 707 00:32:55,060 --> 00:32:53,179 that that I I'm not 708 00:32:56,649 --> 00:32:55,070 again I'm not whitewashing all 709 00:32:58,210 --> 00:32:56,659 intellectuals are all of higher 710 00:33:02,409 --> 00:32:58,220 education that's not what the book is 711 00:33:06,369 --> 00:33:02,419 about it's it's it's an it's a plea to 712 00:33:09,580 --> 00:33:06,379 look at religion and look at human 713 00:33:13,149 --> 00:33:09,590 nature in a way that is not simply 714 00:33:15,399 --> 00:33:13,159 reductive but it's also not bound to our 715 00:33:17,619 --> 00:33:15,409 religious categories that we inherited 716 00:33:20,409 --> 00:33:17,629 from the past now that's really what the 717 00:33:22,529 --> 00:33:20,419 book is about so you know I I share your 718 00:33:25,180 --> 00:33:22,539 critique of materialism you know that 719 00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:25,190 you know the book engages in the same 720 00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:26,720 critique of materialism that you just 721 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:33,049 articulated but um I don't I don't speak 722 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:34,370 of things I don't know anything about 723 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:37,970 that's that seems foolish okay let me 724 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:39,710 ask you do you think we should talk 725 00:33:46,299 --> 00:33:43,370 about morality you have an interesting 726 00:33:49,299 --> 00:33:46,309 little just one line in the book that I 727 00:33:51,340 --> 00:33:49,309 think is we could talk a lot about and 728 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:51,350 that is 729 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:55,850 you say you're reluctant to link the 730 00:34:01,210 --> 00:33:57,650 mystical and the Murrah and the moral 731 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:01,220 and one of the things that I think is 732 00:34:05,230 --> 00:34:02,690 interesting about that from where I sit 733 00:34:07,660 --> 00:34:05,240 having done all these shows on for 734 00:34:11,110 --> 00:34:07,670 example near-death experience the 735 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:11,120 underlying question seems to be okay if 736 00:34:15,820 --> 00:34:12,890 we get to the point where we accept that 737 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:15,830 we're in a post materialistic world and 738 00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,050 that there's this extended consciousness 739 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:20,480 realm which you accept as kind of a 740 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:23,570 given in your work right then don't we 741 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:25,370 have to ask the next question is is 742 00:34:30,370 --> 00:34:28,610 there a higher hierarchal nature to 743 00:34:32,860 --> 00:34:30,380 consciousness because there sure as hell 744 00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:32,870 seems to be I mean that's what that's 745 00:34:37,090 --> 00:34:34,250 what all the near-death experience 746 00:34:40,630 --> 00:34:37,100 research says research says that's what 747 00:34:42,940 --> 00:34:40,640 the the past lives research says that's 748 00:34:45,610 --> 00:34:42,950 what the medium research says it says 749 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:45,620 there's a hierarchical structure to 750 00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:49,130 consciousness if there is then I think 751 00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:51,919 this question that I just teed up you 752 00:34:59,620 --> 00:34:55,990 know is religion moral is God moral and 753 00:35:02,470 --> 00:34:59,630 your reluctance to connect the moral and 754 00:35:04,570 --> 00:35:02,480 the mystical I don't know I want to 755 00:35:07,690 --> 00:35:04,580 throw that on the table and and in the 756 00:35:09,850 --> 00:35:07,700 spirit of having a good a good debate 757 00:35:12,370 --> 00:35:09,860 with you Jeff because as you know as we 758 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:12,380 said I so respect what you're bringing 759 00:35:16,930 --> 00:35:15,170 to this conversation but I gotta push 760 00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:16,940 you a little bit because these are the 761 00:35:21,790 --> 00:35:19,430 things that I care about and because we 762 00:35:25,570 --> 00:35:21,800 need to model I think that there needs 763 00:35:27,310 --> 00:35:25,580 to be a dialogue that isn't always two 764 00:35:29,530 --> 00:35:27,320 people patting each other on the back 765 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:29,540 and agreeing about everything that's 766 00:35:35,410 --> 00:35:31,610 fine like it's a great question Alex we 767 00:35:40,030 --> 00:35:35,420 could we could address it please go 768 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:40,040 ahead well so you're referring to one of 769 00:35:45,070 --> 00:35:42,530 the there's 20 what I call no moans and 770 00:35:48,010 --> 00:35:45,080 these are like little short phrases that 771 00:35:51,410 --> 00:35:48,020 summarize basically the different ideas 772 00:35:54,319 --> 00:35:51,420 in the book and one of the early ones 773 00:35:58,549 --> 00:35:54,329 Cerie connection between the mystical 774 00:36:02,470 --> 00:35:58,559 and the moral and that's a very complex 775 00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:02,480 statement but what I mean by that is 776 00:36:08,690 --> 00:36:05,119 sometimes people have profound 777 00:36:13,099 --> 00:36:08,700 life-changing religious experiences in 778 00:36:18,020 --> 00:36:13,109 situations which are dangerous or deadly 779 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:18,030 or traumatic and it sometimes deeply 780 00:36:24,589 --> 00:36:21,650 charismatic spiritual teachers who can 781 00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:24,599 change people instantly with a touch or 782 00:36:29,539 --> 00:36:27,359 a look can also engage in abusive 783 00:36:33,410 --> 00:36:29,549 sexually abusive physically abusive 784 00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:33,420 behaviors and what I've seen over the 785 00:36:39,819 --> 00:36:36,960 years is people who want to say that 786 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:39,829 it's all either pure light and and 787 00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:43,250 happiness and love or it's all nonsense 788 00:36:48,559 --> 00:36:46,680 it's not real and what I'm trying to 789 00:36:53,870 --> 00:36:48,569 plead for is actually it's messier than 790 00:36:57,260 --> 00:36:53,880 that and sometimes we can have profound 791 00:37:00,049 --> 00:36:57,270 religious experiences in a moral or even 792 00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:00,059 immoral situations and it's just an 793 00:37:06,010 --> 00:37:03,390 observation I'm making it's it's not 794 00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,020 it's not a moral claim that Jeff 795 00:37:11,420 --> 00:37:08,880 cripples making I consider myself to be 796 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:11,430 very concerned about moral issues I met 797 00:37:17,660 --> 00:37:14,609 I'm a social persona I'm a I'm a citizen 798 00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:17,670 I'm a family member like like the rest 799 00:37:22,579 --> 00:37:18,960 of us 800 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:22,589 so I care about people but I don't then 801 00:37:27,890 --> 00:37:25,770 draw from that that every single 802 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:27,900 religious experience has to somehow 803 00:37:34,970 --> 00:37:31,290 honor those moral codes because they 804 00:37:37,579 --> 00:37:34,980 clearly don't and if you look at 805 00:37:40,579 --> 00:37:37,589 religious experience historically what 806 00:37:43,460 --> 00:37:40,589 you realize very fairly quickly is that 807 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:43,470 what human beings have experienced as 808 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:48,690 holy is not the same as the good or the 809 00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:51,930 the moral that sometimes when someone 810 00:37:57,079 --> 00:37:54,000 has an encounter with the holy it's 811 00:38:00,500 --> 00:37:57,089 terrifying and it's even potentially 812 00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:00,510 deadly you don't get to look on the face 813 00:38:05,819 --> 00:38:03,670 of God you don't get to touch the Ark 814 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:05,829 of the Covenant if you get too close to 815 00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:10,210 this God you die so clearly the holding 816 00:38:16,109 --> 00:38:12,940 there is not what we think of as the 817 00:38:18,059 --> 00:38:16,119 good it's something way beyond that it's 818 00:38:20,609 --> 00:38:18,069 something way beyond any moral category 819 00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:20,619 and it can manifest in terrifying or 820 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:23,920 very redemptive in healing ways so let 821 00:38:30,089 --> 00:38:26,290 me let me bring this back to a single 822 00:38:31,710 --> 00:38:30,099 example so I guess you know I'm really 823 00:38:35,099 --> 00:38:31,720 interested in the abduction literature 824 00:38:38,339 --> 00:38:35,109 in this phenomenon of modern people 825 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:38,349 having these abduction experiences well 826 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:40,390 some of those abduction experiences are 827 00:38:45,270 --> 00:38:43,210 very positive and redemptive in healing 828 00:38:49,230 --> 00:38:45,280 and some of them are terrifying and 829 00:38:52,140 --> 00:38:49,240 traumatizing and destructive and I would 830 00:38:54,510 --> 00:38:52,150 say they are both both of those kinds of 831 00:38:57,059 --> 00:38:54,520 abduction experiences are encounters 832 00:38:59,339 --> 00:38:57,069 with the holy one in a positive frame 833 00:39:02,160 --> 00:38:59,349 and one in a negative frame and I 834 00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:02,170 wouldn't want as what what I think what 835 00:39:07,950 --> 00:39:04,000 I'm trying to argue against is saying oh 836 00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:07,960 one is demonic and one is real no the 837 00:39:13,950 --> 00:39:10,030 demon and the angel are two sides of the 838 00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:13,960 same sacred coin here and and we have to 839 00:39:19,349 --> 00:39:16,000 struggle with that as human beings 840 00:39:21,809 --> 00:39:19,359 because this is our religious experience 841 00:39:24,359 --> 00:39:21,819 over the centuries and millennia we can 842 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:24,369 find hundreds and thousands of cases of 843 00:39:29,130 --> 00:39:26,890 religious accounts that are incredibly 844 00:39:32,010 --> 00:39:29,140 positive and we can find the same number 845 00:39:33,930 --> 00:39:32,020 that are incredibly negative so why lop 846 00:39:37,020 --> 00:39:33,940 off one for the sake of the other why 847 00:39:39,359 --> 00:39:37,030 not just say they're both there because 848 00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:39,369 they don't know because we don't know if 849 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:42,430 some of those really horrific abduction 850 00:39:50,549 --> 00:39:45,930 experiences are at the hand of some 851 00:39:54,599 --> 00:39:50,559 MyLab military-industrial complex idiot 852 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:54,609 who's doing some other mindless MKULTRA 853 00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:57,010 type job and then there's a whole other 854 00:40:02,370 --> 00:40:00,160 set of them that truly are spiritually 855 00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:02,380 transformative because that was the 856 00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:04,720 intent of the people behind them we 857 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:06,640 don't know so just but just in the same 858 00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:09,250 way that we can't apply you know the 859 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:12,670 filter that you just kind of criticized 860 00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:14,410 we can't apply your filter either 861 00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:16,240 because we don't know what the nature of 862 00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:16,880 those 863 00:40:22,330 --> 00:40:18,710 but we know that any religious 864 00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:22,340 experience before 1920 or just pick your 865 00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:25,040 date had nothing to do with an MKULTRA 866 00:40:30,370 --> 00:40:27,740 lab or any intelligence service I mean 867 00:40:33,490 --> 00:40:30,380 you can see these patterns as far as you 868 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:33,500 want to go back in time I mean these 869 00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:35,810 these are deep deep historical pattern I 870 00:40:40,690 --> 00:40:38,000 don't buy your critique there I mean I I 871 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:40,700 think these are ancient and they say 872 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:42,770 something about our own our own humanity 873 00:40:48,670 --> 00:40:45,410 and how it interacts with whatever that 874 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:48,680 is that we're interacting with I want to 875 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:52,130 try and hit one more point before I let 876 00:40:57,130 --> 00:40:55,490 you go onto your busy day okay it's so 877 00:40:58,990 --> 00:40:57,140 incredibly generous for sharing this 878 00:41:01,690 --> 00:40:59,000 time with us and sharing so many people 879 00:41:04,270 --> 00:41:01,700 sharing with so many people your 880 00:41:08,110 --> 00:41:04,280 insights in your perspective about this 881 00:41:10,690 --> 00:41:08,120 new book secret body which is as we've 882 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:10,700 touched down a little bit but I've told 883 00:41:15,490 --> 00:41:12,650 you in a lot of different directions but 884 00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:15,500 it's about this journey that you've been 885 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:17,390 on it's a it's a memoir it's a 886 00:41:22,060 --> 00:41:19,330 celebration for people to understand 887 00:41:23,740 --> 00:41:22,070 really your whole body of work through 888 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:23,750 these experiences that you've had and 889 00:41:30,340 --> 00:41:26,450 the connection between the erotic the 890 00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:30,350 esoteric and religion but as you can see 891 00:41:34,930 --> 00:41:33,380 on the screen the last topic that I want 892 00:41:38,710 --> 00:41:34,940 to talk about is something that you just 893 00:41:42,790 --> 00:41:38,720 let us into in this last section because 894 00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:42,800 again Jeff I don't quite agree with you 895 00:41:46,930 --> 00:41:44,960 you know I just had that yeah this is 896 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:46,940 you're kind of famous if you will at 897 00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:49,130 this another influencer Jeff crippled 898 00:41:53,740 --> 00:41:50,960 influencer well you'll hear this over 899 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:53,750 and over again and we need better sci-fi 900 00:41:59,200 --> 00:41:56,930 to understand UFOs that's Jeff cry pool 901 00:42:00,520 --> 00:41:59,210 if you hear anything like that in any 902 00:42:03,970 --> 00:42:00,530 form or fashion 903 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:03,980 that's Jeff crippled talking but you 904 00:42:12,070 --> 00:42:05,890 know recently I had the opportunity to 905 00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:12,080 talk with both Jacques Vallee who's kind 906 00:42:14,650 --> 00:42:13,430 of come around and done some interviews 907 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:14,660 again and I also had a chance to 908 00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:17,450 interview Stanton Friedman and I 909 00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:19,760 interviewed Stanton Friedman I want to 910 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:21,470 really interview him because I think 911 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:23,090 there's this contrast reverences 912 00:42:29,350 --> 00:42:26,210 Oh Jacques filet you know exactly him I 913 00:42:30,220 --> 00:42:29,360 love ya glai but it's like Oh jock boule 914 00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:30,230 he under 915 00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:38,000 forever and then Stan freedom of course 916 00:42:43,930 --> 00:42:40,310 is characterized as this guy oh he's an 917 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:43,940 old nuts and bolts UFO guy and he's just 918 00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:46,850 flying saucers and nuclear propulsion 919 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:49,670 systems and all this no go talk to him 920 00:42:52,030 --> 00:42:51,650 both they're both saying the same damn 921 00:42:55,060 --> 00:42:52,040 thing 922 00:42:58,480 --> 00:42:55,070 so Jacque delay is very interested in 923 00:42:59,680 --> 00:42:58,490 the crashes he's very interested in 924 00:43:01,090 --> 00:42:59,690 MUFON 925 00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:01,100 still you know people say oh he isn't 926 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:02,960 care yeah he cares about MUFON he cares 927 00:43:07,570 --> 00:43:04,490 about the data that there's collecting 928 00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:07,580 he cares about how to gather this 929 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:09,680 information cares about the technology 930 00:43:14,140 --> 00:43:11,930 what we've gained what we've known and 931 00:43:16,750 --> 00:43:14,150 learned in the last 60 years 932 00:43:18,430 --> 00:43:16,760 so he's broaden the discussion in the 933 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:18,440 way that you're talking about in terms 934 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:20,930 of this extended consciousness realm and 935 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:23,570 we don't know how it interacts but I 936 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:27,530 don't find him as willing as most people 937 00:43:36,370 --> 00:43:32,210 have characterized him to give up on the 938 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:36,380 immediacy of the technology that is kind 939 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:38,570 of coming out of that and then on the 940 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:40,130 flip side you know you have Stan 941 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:43,130 Friedman who like I've always saw with 942 00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:44,810 Stan Friedman he's always talked about 943 00:43:48,220 --> 00:43:46,310 consciousness right so he's talking 944 00:43:50,290 --> 00:43:48,230 about Benny Betty and Barney Hill the 945 00:43:51,790 --> 00:43:50,300 first major abduction case in the 50s 946 00:43:53,230 --> 00:43:51,800 and he say hey it's all about 947 00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:53,240 consciousness and they're doing all 948 00:43:56,830 --> 00:43:54,950 these consciousness things and we have 949 00:43:58,510 --> 00:43:56,840 to factor that in and we have to factor 950 00:44:01,060 --> 00:43:58,520 in the technology of consciousness and 951 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:01,070 how much we don't understand it so might 952 00:44:05,140 --> 00:44:03,050 push back on you Jeff and what I'd like 953 00:44:06,910 --> 00:44:05,150 to hear you respond to and I like 954 00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:06,920 pushing you because you push back hard 955 00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:08,240 and that's how you should do it 956 00:44:16,260 --> 00:44:12,560 I think you're overstating the UFO 957 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:16,270 consciousness Jacque filet fairies and 958 00:44:22,590 --> 00:44:19,250 angels throughout history thing to the 959 00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:22,600 extent that it doesn't jive with the 960 00:44:28,060 --> 00:44:25,520 technology angle that we know exists 961 00:44:30,220 --> 00:44:28,070 from the last 50 years of recovering 962 00:44:32,140 --> 00:44:30,230 flying saucers and trying to reverse 963 00:44:34,450 --> 00:44:32,150 engineer them and doing all that stuff 964 00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:34,460 which is now so much outed and in the 965 00:44:39,310 --> 00:44:37,730 news and Tom DeLonge and you know all 966 00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:39,320 the rest that stuff that we know now 967 00:44:42,609 --> 00:44:41,119 that stuff is there and we're living 968 00:44:44,180 --> 00:44:42,619 through this kind of drip by drip 969 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:44,190 disclosure 970 00:44:50,810 --> 00:44:46,650 I'll shut up now what do you think about 971 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:50,820 the technology angle to this well again 972 00:44:57,050 --> 00:44:53,130 this goes back to something I said 973 00:44:58,760 --> 00:44:57,060 earlier that one of the first rules when 974 00:45:01,760 --> 00:44:58,770 you're trying to write a book or you're 975 00:45:03,260 --> 00:45:01,770 trying to be a responsible intellectual 976 00:45:05,450 --> 00:45:03,270 is you don't talk about things you don't 977 00:45:07,610 --> 00:45:05,460 know anything about now you already 978 00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:07,620 played that card you not know about you 979 00:45:09,980 --> 00:45:09,120 got to know about as much stuff as you 980 00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:09,990 can know about it 981 00:45:15,530 --> 00:45:13,260 well no I don't I've never seen any hard 982 00:45:17,450 --> 00:45:15,540 fast evidence for recovered technology 983 00:45:19,940 --> 00:45:17,460 you so it is your opinion from the 984 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:19,950 evidence you've seen you do not believe 985 00:45:24,170 --> 00:45:21,690 that there's any there's been any 986 00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:24,180 recovered technology I didn't say that I 987 00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:26,820 didn't say pinning you down I'm asking I 988 00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:29,310 said obviously been in this field I mean 989 00:45:33,050 --> 00:45:31,200 it's not like you've been had your head 990 00:45:34,970 --> 00:45:33,060 buried in the sand I think what you just 991 00:45:36,770 --> 00:45:34,980 said is you haven't found any evidence 992 00:45:39,470 --> 00:45:36,780 that convinces you that there's a 993 00:45:41,150 --> 00:45:39,480 reality to that so you accept the kind 994 00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:41,160 of government sanctioned opinion that 995 00:45:45,830 --> 00:45:43,140 there hasn't been any I don't have any 996 00:45:48,530 --> 00:45:45,840 security clearances Alex I haven't seen 997 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:48,540 any of these objects I haven't I have 998 00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:52,050 nothing but what I all have nothing 999 00:45:56,750 --> 00:45:54,000 we've been pushed into a position of 1000 00:45:58,310 --> 00:45:56,760 having nothing I have to work with the 1001 00:46:00,230 --> 00:45:58,320 data we have we have to work with the 1002 00:46:01,910 --> 00:46:00,240 information here's what we have here's 1003 00:46:05,990 --> 00:46:01,920 what we have we have people's 1004 00:46:08,210 --> 00:46:06,000 experiences we have lots of experiences 1005 00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:08,220 and that's what I do as a scholar 1006 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:11,040 religion I study people's experiences so 1007 00:46:15,770 --> 00:46:13,530 when I talk about the UFO phenomena I 1008 00:46:18,260 --> 00:46:15,780 don't talk about recovered craft because 1009 00:46:20,780 --> 00:46:18,270 I don't know anything about it I talk 1010 00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:20,790 about people's experiences of abduction 1011 00:46:26,180 --> 00:46:23,400 or sightings or encounters because those 1012 00:46:28,580 --> 00:46:26,190 do in fact look just like the religious 1013 00:46:30,890 --> 00:46:28,590 encounters in the past and I can say 1014 00:46:34,940 --> 00:46:30,900 something about that because that's my 1015 00:46:37,340 --> 00:46:34,950 area I actually can speak to that I'm 1016 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:37,350 shaking my head because I don't buy that 1017 00:46:44,330 --> 00:46:40,410 Jeff in the sense that it changes 1018 00:46:47,090 --> 00:46:44,340 everything if you push if you push that 1019 00:46:48,650 --> 00:46:47,100 to the end it changes anything 1020 00:46:50,690 --> 00:46:48,660 everything it's like when we're talking 1021 00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:50,700 about Christianity you know on the show 1022 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:53,040 we've gotten very interested in biblical 1023 00:46:57,380 --> 00:46:55,170 scholarship and the mythos is kind of 1024 00:47:01,250 --> 00:46:57,390 idea about Jesus 1025 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:01,260 it changes everything if when we come to 1026 00:47:06,650 --> 00:47:03,930 one conclusion versus another about a 1027 00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:06,660 historical Jesus I think there's an 1028 00:47:12,890 --> 00:47:10,110 exact parallel with UFOs if you come 1029 00:47:15,050 --> 00:47:12,900 down on the John Mac side and you say 1030 00:47:17,180 --> 00:47:15,060 this is real these people are having 1031 00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:17,190 abduction experiences and they're 1032 00:47:23,570 --> 00:47:20,400 spiritual in nature that puts you in one 1033 00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:23,580 camp come down on the David Jacob side 1034 00:47:29,230 --> 00:47:26,430 and you say these are abductions in the 1035 00:47:33,230 --> 00:47:29,240 abduction criminal sense of the word and 1036 00:47:36,370 --> 00:47:33,240 that it's a prop it's a project will 1037 00:47:40,310 --> 00:47:36,380 being rung by someone in control in that 1038 00:47:42,530 --> 00:47:40,320 MKULTRA kind of world then you you it 1039 00:47:46,430 --> 00:47:42,540 puts a completely different filter on 1040 00:47:51,740 --> 00:47:46,440 the experience I'm very suspicious of 1041 00:47:53,540 --> 00:47:51,750 the invasion mythology and the whole the 1042 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:53,550 whole thing you just articulated it 1043 00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:55,290 sounds too much meat to me like a 1044 00:48:03,890 --> 00:47:58,800 paranoid kind of fundamentalist fantasy 1045 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:03,900 about extraterrestrial and invasions you 1046 00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:05,970 know and I address that in the book by 1047 00:48:10,070 --> 00:48:08,520 the way if you remember I didn't 1048 00:48:12,980 --> 00:48:10,080 remember that part but go ahead tell us 1049 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:12,990 what you think I think those kinds of 1050 00:48:18,770 --> 00:48:15,930 fears and phobias are essentially 1051 00:48:20,930 --> 00:48:18,780 religious and their fears of hybridity 1052 00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:20,940 and their fears of the other and their 1053 00:48:26,660 --> 00:48:24,780 fears of of the religious other and they 1054 00:48:28,700 --> 00:48:26,670 get framed in these abduction 1055 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:28,710 experiences which are real by the way 1056 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:30,330 people really have these abduction 1057 00:48:35,870 --> 00:48:33,090 experiences but that doesn't mean I I 1058 00:48:39,830 --> 00:48:35,880 think there are actual extraterrestrials 1059 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:39,840 invading the u.s. that that sounds way 1060 00:48:47,090 --> 00:48:44,010 to cold war way to fundamentalist to me 1061 00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:47,100 to believe and it's not my job as a 1062 00:48:51,290 --> 00:48:48,960 scholar religion to believe any 1063 00:48:53,690 --> 00:48:51,300 mythology I run into I don't I don't 1064 00:48:56,750 --> 00:48:53,700 believe any of it I think I think all of 1065 00:48:58,730 --> 00:48:56,760 these things are stories that cultures 1066 00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:58,740 tell themselves in particular places in 1067 00:49:04,220 --> 00:49:01,680 time to make sense of the world but I 1068 00:49:06,530 --> 00:49:04,230 don't I don't believe any of the stories 1069 00:49:08,780 --> 00:49:06,540 well I think liberalism is a story I 1070 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:08,790 think feminism is a story in particular 1071 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:11,050 when we find out that what 1072 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:13,450 feminum was really about was a project 1073 00:49:20,130 --> 00:49:17,170 run by the CIA to control and shape 1074 00:49:22,530 --> 00:49:20,140 culture and I say that in the sense that 1075 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:22,540 we can all get behind and say going back 1076 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:26,650 to the 1950s and treating women in this 1077 00:49:32,550 --> 00:49:28,690 subservient role is a completely 1078 00:49:34,530 --> 00:49:32,560 unacceptable but so is an engineered 1079 00:49:38,730 --> 00:49:34,540 effort to shape culture in a particular 1080 00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:38,740 way in order to control people so so 1081 00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:40,960 what I would say to that Alex first of 1082 00:49:45,180 --> 00:49:42,760 all like people have been trying to 1083 00:49:48,750 --> 00:49:45,190 control the cultural narrative forever 1084 00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:48,760 and you can blame the CIA today but 1085 00:49:55,860 --> 00:49:51,400 before that it was the Catholic Church 1086 00:49:57,690 --> 00:49:55,870 or the Puritans or you know the the the 1087 00:50:00,800 --> 00:49:57,700 Empire or the cult the British 1088 00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:00,810 colonialists or the East India Company 1089 00:50:07,470 --> 00:50:03,790 human beings always trying to control 1090 00:50:09,810 --> 00:50:07,480 the narrative and what I am is a scholar 1091 00:50:12,510 --> 00:50:09,820 of religion is I'm always suspicious of 1092 00:50:14,550 --> 00:50:12,520 the narratives whatever they are because 1093 00:50:15,210 --> 00:50:14,560 I know they're controlled that's my 1094 00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:15,220 point 1095 00:50:21,570 --> 00:50:18,400 their curse their control but it's not 1096 00:50:25,980 --> 00:50:21,580 the evil CIA doing everything it's human 1097 00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:25,990 nature nation-states do this bloggers 1098 00:50:32,220 --> 00:50:29,200 like Alex do this I mean we all do this 1099 00:50:34,740 --> 00:50:32,230 we're all kind of arguing about what the 1100 00:50:36,450 --> 00:50:34,750 narrative is and I'm just like saying 1101 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:36,460 hey okay 1102 00:50:40,980 --> 00:50:38,650 let's wake up let's let's admit we're 1103 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:40,990 arguing about the story and let's tell a 1104 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:43,330 better story that's what that's that's 1105 00:50:47,700 --> 00:50:45,010 the source of the quote you put up there 1106 00:50:50,100 --> 00:50:47,710 earlier this is why this is the better 1107 00:50:52,410 --> 00:50:50,110 sci-fi line we need better science 1108 00:50:55,530 --> 00:50:52,420 fiction not because one's true and one's 1109 00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:55,540 false but because you know we're living 1110 00:50:59,940 --> 00:50:57,520 in us we're living in a set of stories 1111 00:51:04,020 --> 00:50:59,950 that are pretty nasty our guest again 1112 00:51:05,820 --> 00:51:04,030 has been the incomparable dr. Jeffrey 1113 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:05,830 [\h__\h] you're going to want to check 1114 00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:09,130 out his new book if you're a fan at all 1115 00:51:14,820 --> 00:51:12,400 of any of his prior work you really want 1116 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:14,830 to add this book for me and for a lot of 1117 00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:17,770 folks it'll just add such an enriched 1118 00:51:23,550 --> 00:51:21,250 view of this whole body of work it's 1119 00:51:24,690 --> 00:51:23,560 been absolutely terrific having him on 1120 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:24,700 if you've just tuned in 1121 00:51:29,609 --> 00:51:27,130 this segment of the conversation do 1122 00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:29,619 check out a plan on releasing this in a 1123 00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:31,390 couple of different ways twelve 1124 00:51:35,220 --> 00:51:33,790 altogether and in parts so we can pull 1125 00:51:37,319 --> 00:51:35,230 out some of the really interesting stuff 1126 00:51:38,490 --> 00:51:37,329 that Jeff had to say he kept saying I 1127 00:51:40,589 --> 00:51:38,500 was pulling him away from the book 1128 00:51:42,540 --> 00:51:40,599 that's the point Jeff everyone's going 1129 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:42,550 to buy the book we want to know what 1130 00:51:47,460 --> 00:51:44,050 you're thinking about all these other 1131 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:47,470 issues but you're terrific like I just 1132 00:51:51,420 --> 00:51:50,050 I'm so honored to to have you on and 1133 00:51:53,010 --> 00:51:51,430 have this kind of dialogue with you 1134 00:51:55,829 --> 00:51:53,020 thanks so much for joining me 1135 00:51:57,390 --> 00:51:55,839 thanks Alex it was fun so thanks for 1136 00:52:00,030 --> 00:51:57,400 watching this video and if it wasn't 1137 00:52:01,980 --> 00:52:00,040 really a video but just an audio stored 1138 00:52:04,050 --> 00:52:01,990 as a video I apologize but there's more 1139 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:04,060 videos out there as well but please 1140 00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:06,010 check out the Skeptical website you can 1141 00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:07,510 see it here we cover a lot of different 1142 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:09,119 stuff you might be interested in 1143 00:52:14,940 --> 00:52:12,130 relating to controversial science and 1144 00:52:17,940 --> 00:52:14,950 spirituality a lot of shows up there 1145 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:17,950 over 350 of them are so all free all 1146 00:52:22,370 --> 00:52:21,130 available for download so do check it